America, What Went Wrong
I have mentioned before that I think most Christians understand that America has some sort of Christian heritage. The problem is they seldom understand what that heritage really is and think that the pluralist elightenment vision of 1787 is “our” heritage and embrace it as though it were biblical. For the most part, Christian Americans don’t understand Christ’s office of a King very well. They don’t understand with any theological clearity the Crown Rights of Jesus Christ. The first settlers of this country did, however. They were calvinists, theocrats and postmillenialists. Their theological beliefs about God and our relationship to Him guided everything they did. They left us with a lot of capital, and our people have survived of it for many years. Instead of building on it, our forefathers squandered and spent it all. What went wrong with America? Simple answer, we forgot who the God of our fathers was. We abandoned our heritage and adopted a theology that rejects the absolutes of God’s Law-Word. We traded a God that was in control of everything for one that waits and hopes that people will “let him in”. We rejected a vision of victory for the Church and adopted a vision of defeat. I know what I have written will offend some readers, but I must write what I believe to be true. The time for sitting on the sidelines is over. The time for God’s people to rediscover the truths of a covenantal understanding of the bible is now. We have a lot of work to do.
April 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Nah… in order to offend people you have to tell them that their pre-millennialistic, anti-nomian, dispensational, statist Christianity smells of sulfur and is marketed by Satan.
Now, that will offend them.
April 16th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Scott, your strong statement and stand is music to my ears . . . can’t wait to fellowship with you in the truth when you come.
April 16th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Hi Scott,
Hmmm….Coincidence? Your title, “America, What went wrong?” is along the lines of a blog title I am planning to write about soon.
I agree with you.
April 16th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I was hoping someone would bring this up. I have been trying to understand what postmillennialism is and how it relates to the agrarian perspective, but as I come from a pre-mill, dispensatioal, statist, probably anti-nomian culture, no one I can muster up enough courage to ask can (or will) give me a straight answer. It always starts something like “those crazy people who actually believe things like that…” and then I rather don’t think I’m getting a very fair answer. By the way, please, offend me with the truth!! I so need to hear it, and as you can guess I have to do alot of sifting from where I am currently.
April 16th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Amen and Yee-haw!
April 16th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Scott,
You haven’t offended me! It is like a breath of fresh air to read what you have said. Thanks!
I am very much waiting with eager anticipation for the fellowship in the gospel that we will have when you arrive. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen!
Jeff
April 17th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Angela,
I have been trying to understand what postmillennialism is and how it relates to the agrarian perspective
Well, I’m not Scott, so I guess I’m butting in. But if Scott doesn’t delete my comment, then I guess he will let it stand.
Postmillenialism is the view that Jesus Christ came to earth, died, was buried, was raised from the dead, ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty where he presently rules, and will continue to rule, until he has put all of his enemies under his feet, and that he will then turn the kingdom over to his Father …
That God has always ruled, but that his kingdom was established in a particular way on earth during the incarnation of Christ, and that its growth is like yeast in a lump of dough … it works slowly, and imperceptibly at times, but very really, and over a period of time the result is obvious …
That its growth is from small to large (like a tiny mustard seed which, when planted, grows into the largest of garden bushes, big enough for all the birds to nest in) …
That it is like a small stone which struck the kingdoms of man, and began to grow, and will continue to grow until it becomes a huge mountain that fills the entire earth …
That there are many Old Testament prophecies about the kingdom, but some of them give time indicators that place its inception at the time of Christ. For example, Daniel talks about the 4 kingdoms from his time until the establishment of the eternal kingdom (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome) and that in the days of the final of these four, the eternal kingdom will be established (Daniel 2, Daniel 7); also, 490 years from the decree that ends the Babylonian captivity and rebuilds Jerusalem until Messiah’s ministry (Daniel 9) …
That the time of this establishment was confirmed by Peter (Acts 2) and that within the generation of Christ, the signs were clear that the Son of Man was ruling in the heavens as he destroyed the enemies that had crucified him and persecuted his church (Matthew 24) …
And that ever since, the kingdom has marched forward, so that now, instead of one nation (Israel) of whom a FEW were faithful (a few thousand after Pentecost), now the church covers all the earth, and about one third of the earths 6+ billion people profess to be subjects of Christ. (We are well aware that there are many false professors. Nevertheless, from a few thousand to over 2 billion who profess Christ shows a slow but steady growth in the kingdom of God.)
The name postmillenialism is relatively new (several hundred years old), but most of the concepts have been held by much of the church during many periods of history. The view came to its height among the descendants of the Protestant Reformation, particularly the Puritans and their spiritual relatives who founded America in the 1600’s. My particular background is Baptist, and this view was predominant among Baptist ranks until the early 20th century. David Dockery speaks particularly of Southern Baptists:
Nineteenth century Southern Baptist theology was predominantly postmillennial. This position was held by the founders of Southern Seminary and Southwestern Seminary. This postmillennialism was the type held by the Puritans and Jonathan Edwards. They were looking for God’s kingdom to come. A thoroughgoing postmillenialism undergirds the WMU theme song, “We’ve a Story to Tell to the Nations” In that hymn we sing, “Christ’s great kingdom shall come on earth, a kingdom of love and light.” Postmillenialism was the dominant position until World War I. After that, W.T. Conner and E.Y. Mullins were amillennialists, and that became the Southern Baptist position in Southern Baptist academia during the twentieth century. (http://www.baptiststart.com/print/eschatology_panel.html)
The causes for the demise of postmillenialism in the past century are surely many, but the basic pattern was: pride, followed by despair. As liberalism made inroads during the nineteenth century (German theologians who threw the Bible out and adopted naturalism instead), people began to see the kingdom of God as the accomplishment of mankind getting better and better (progress, evolution, etc.) rather than the accomplishment of God building his work on the earth. Human pride exalted human ability. Then came World War I, in which the dream of human utopia was shattered. Out of this despair, the very notion that God would build his kingdom came under fire, and men began to believe that good and evil would be essentially equal on earth (amillenialism), or that evil would predominate (dispensational premillenialism) until the physical presence of Jesus changed that. However, as one climbs to the peak of a mountain, every step is not upward. There are many downward steps, but the climb is still up overall. In the same way, in the growth of God’s kingdom, not every period is upward. In the Western world (due, I must say, to our apostasy), we are in a dramatic downward swing. But God has revived his church in worse times! And his kingdom is still moving forward. His word is clear that it was established at Christ’s incarnation, and that it will continue to grow steadily until the end, until the knowledge of the LORD shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. Downward spirals will be replaced by repentance and restoration, and new (and higher) heights. Ultimately, God will put all his enemies under his feet (Psalm 110, the Old Testament passage most quoted in the New Testament), and he will do that through his church (Romans 16:20, Revelation 2:26-27) — that is, what is described of Jesus is specifically attributed to his church in these passages.
What does that have to do with agrarianism? First, agrarianism can mean 1000 things. Scott, Tom (Rural Missourian), Herrick (Deliberate Agrarian) mean Biblical agrarianism, or Christian agrarianism when they say agrarianism. It simply means to steward the land according to the law of God. Since the root of economics and wealth is the land, and what our labor draws forth from the land, this means simply that all economics are to be subject to the law that God has set forth. This has everything to do with postmillenialism, because it is as God grants repentance to his church, and they begin to live faithfully according to the law he has given (by which it is obvious that they are born of Him, love Him, love the brethren; and His law, BTW, is not grievous - 1 John 5:1-3) that the kingdom begins to reverse from the valley, and moves on an upward path again. And, by that same repentance, and the patient obedience which issues forth therefrom, economic revitalization happens .. that is through faithful, obedient stewarding of the land. The current pagan economic system promises great wealth and material possession immediately (or yesterday) through debt. Biblical agrarianism requires patience, but guarantees a bigger return in the end (multi-generational thinking). It is the same patience that sees the slow, but very real, growth of the kingdom of God over the centuries. I guess that is why sometimes people hold to both. They are two facets of the same coin, really.
And so my diatribe ends. Scott, delete me if you think I’ve gone overboard.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:21 am
A very fine explanation, Rayvillian. I especially appreciate the way you’ve tied the divine law, christian stewardship and postmillenial expectations together in a seamless package. Well done, sir… or madam as the case may be.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
A fine post from Scott and a great explanation from Rayvillian. More posts on this topic to come? Please!
April 17th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Good job Rayvillain. Postmillennialism is by no means a pie-in-the-sky worldview, as the Rayvillian alluded to, where everyone gets saved and the whole world turns to Christ with joy . . . not by any means. There will always be sore conflicts and costly battles until the Lord puts an end to “sin in the flesh” once and for all at the Last Day. Nonetheless, it is because Christ, as King of kings, is ruling and reigning over the earth now, with all power and authority, from His throne in Heaven that we can labor in hope under Him as His servants with a victorious worldview in building His kingdom through preaching and living out the glorious Gospel of His Kingdom. This also means that when His people live in covenantal unfaithfulness that He also judges them according to their works, as we are clearly experiencing today. One of the chief ways that the Lord chastises His people is to cause them to come under the painful rod of wicked nations, like Israel did with Shishak, king of Egypt. He put them under this wicked king so that they would, as the Scriptures put it, distinguish My service from the service of the kingdoms of the nations (2Chr. 12:8). When God’s people turn their back on Him to embrace the wicked in seeking their peace and prosperity, a violation of His commandments (Deu 23:6, Ezra 9:12), He often puts them under their rule to learn the difference between serving Him with His blessing and serving others with His curses. What we are seeing today is not the wicked ruling the earth in increasing hopeless decline (the premillennial – dispensational viewpoint), but Christ using the wicked to judge His people for denying His present rule over them, especially His Law. This is good news, for when His judgments have had their perfect work in bringing His people to repentance and reformation, then He will judge the wicked nations He used as a temporal rod of chastisement. What this means in real time is that we will descend into the valley of tears for as long as it takes to bring repentance and reformation before He will cause His people to once again ascend the heights of His blessing when they return to faithfully keeping covenant with Him.
April 17th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
It is the ‘His people’ that sometimes most confuses. Am I one of his people?
What must I believe, how must I live. And most importantly how much do I love?
I am slowly turning this over in my mind, to be not of the world but at the same time feel sorrow rather than hate for those still in it. Including former friends and family members.
This is a battle of witness rather than intellect. As we stand still on the rock that is Christ, the world notices us more and we can notice the world more, and because we will need to come ever closer to other believers to butress the norm against the abnormal, to move from isolated hermit families to community. We will be persecuted in direct parallell to the early church.
This time however , instead of lions it will be social workers and psychologists that our children will be thrown to. Better the circus than the psychologists. Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt during the Herodian terror , and the Christians left Jerusalem before the final destruction of the temple by the Romans. If we have eyes and ears we must leave Babylon rather than share in her crimes and be contaminated with her plagues.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:40 am
Wow, I’ve been to busy to keep track of my own blog and looks like a good old fashioned discussion has taken off!
Thanks to all for the comments, thoughts, ect.
Jeff, Tom and Ravillian
I look forward to our fellowship next week! It will be so good to finally meet you folks in the flesh.
Angela
Both the Rayvillian and Pastor McConnell have done a fine job of explaining the Postmil position and some of its implications. The modern approach to “not polish brass on a sinking ship” has shown its implications right before our very eyes. Many shun the idea that theology and eschatology are important aspects of biblical agrarainism. The fact is inescapable, these things have real implications in how we act in the here and now. I hope these answers have helped you understand our position a little better. Thanks for asking and not just accepting the “those crazy people believe such and such” answer our critics like throw out.
April 18th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Colin, your considerations are insightful. Where would you propose those who flee Babylon go? Name any place in this present world that is not under the dominion of the heathen and, thus, under God’s wrath. Since the all the nations and the earth itself are the rightful inheritance of King Jesus (Psa. 2), Who is seated on His throne In His Kingdom with all power and authority over Heaven and earth, it appears to me that it is not a matter of fleeing so much as we need to secede, to separate where we have unequally yoked ourselves to unbelievers, as Paul commands in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, so we as a bright city set on a hill can proactively preach and live out the Gospel as one people, the pillar and ground of truth, the salt of the earth and light of the world. So long as the wicked can keep the Lord’s people at bay by keeping them scattered and occupied with the things of their world, or, better yet, on the run, they have the upper hand, but should the Lord’s people come together by faithful covenant keeping, as one people, the gates of hell cannot prevail against her. Yes, we flee, but to the Lord in broken repentance, as we look to Him to separate us from Babylon through working in His people to obey His commandments. “Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
April 18th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Just came across this blog, and what a great discussion! Agrarianism and theology are closely intertwined, primarily since the former, in addition to being a philosophical/theological position is a practical outworking of the same. I’ve seen this in my own journey toward agrarianism (and a cousin, the distributivism of Kuyper and Belloc). As I came to see, and really believe, Christ as Lord of all (”every square inch”), the pie-in-the-sky that I was weaned on began to sour.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:01 am
it appears to me that it is not a matter of fleeing so much as we need to secede, to separate where we have unequally yoked ourselves to unbelievers
I may be totally wrong, but secession is exactly how I took Colin’s statement that we must leave Babylon rather than share in her crimes and be contaminated with her plagues.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
I think leaving Babylon is as simple [ not easy] as ceasing to use her. The ‘ rural solution’, enables each of us Fathers to construct a ‘ paradise’, [ walled garden] where we have been commissioned with the power to bind and loose within our own unique juristiction, the Family.
Families of Families , like the twelve tribes is our Nation. I am being steadily drawn to the Amish pattern , which is simply the way of our Fore Fathers and not unique to them alone. In Ireland that familial pattern still exsists in the rural West as it has done for centuries. Generational Families living in close proximity….. as a Tribe. Tribes in alliance become a Nation
April 18th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Colin, forgive me for misunderstanding you; I see your point and do concur. Biblical fleeing is often a form of secession. Along these lines, the definition for secede is quite enlightening:
SECE’DE, v.i. [L. secedo; se, from, and cedo , to move. Se is an inseparable preposition or prefix in Latin, but denoting departure or separation.] To withdraw from fellowship, communion or association; to separate ones’s self; as, certain ministers seceded from the church of Scotland about the year 1733. (The American Dictionary Of The English Language, Noah Webster, 1828)
In my thinking, to flee Babylon is to withdraw from the unrighteous fellowship we have with it wherein we have unequally yoked ourselves. But where are we to flee? Is it not back to faithful covenant keeping, which starts at the local level where families and individuals covenant together as members of the local church and community of Christ?
On the Amish note, I have come to greatly appreciate them since first acquiring our wonderful mule team from a seasoned farmer, logger, and excellent mule trainer. They have much to offer us in understanding the mechanisms of close community, especially their various cooperatives – the fire and health funds, etc. However, there is one arena I think they have erred in and that is in withdrawing from the public square and civil authority, an outworking of their largely Armenian doctrine. Like other elements that are “of the world” which they shun, “politics” is one of them, though they do operate their communities by the government of elder rulership. I have had several conversations with them over this matter of politics and the horrific state of our nation, as they have expressed their own serious concerns, as they see the world rapidly encroaching upon them. Many have expressed the real need to take a stand for righteousness, so perhaps the Lord is working reformation amongst them, as well. May the Lord be with all His people in repentance and reformation!
April 18th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I’ll be honest I used to think that politics and Religion related to everybody. However now I am almost convinced that The politics ie the social rights of Christ can only be binding on those who acknowledge his juristiction in their lives. The Messianic kingdom is the Kingdom of heaven as witnessed here below by his followers.
This is what I am trying to grasp as it relates to witness rather than intellect . The Amish are pacifists and do not get involved in politics. Their own sphere however is the most rigorous in way of ever fluctuating schism and legalism.
I think [ and by this stage I should admit that nothing I have ever had to say even the suspicion of infallibility and could be a load of cod’s wallop] that politics and Babylon are intertwined. By attempting to reach out to use it’s earthly power all governments become corrupt, no matter from whence they started.
If I were in charge I would ban even mild porn. Women would cease wearing trousers. They would be forbidden access to the work place. Contraception and abortion would be illegal. Homosexuality would be a crime. Basically I would want to roll back the centuries to a time when I felt the balance was right. That balance might not suit everybody here , and even if it did. Guess what we might fight about after that? Religion.
Thats why i feel that families with God appointed Fathers at the helm. Ruling as Elders a tribe spanning generations inhabiting a distinct geographical area is the true and biblical model, not the classical model that seeks ever to centralise power like Greece, Rome, Babylon, The British Empire, Napolion, Hitler, NWO etc. Warring against the worlds encroachments and thereby standing as a contradiction to the world is, I feel the way to evangelise to the world.
My sis is coming to visit me here in Ireland. She is unmarried single mum of three little girls. She drinks, smokes, has a tatoo, goes to nightlubs etc. It will be what she sees in my home that she will take back with her. Not me jumping on her with my hundred books to back me up . Now if I havent got that right than nothing I say will convince her that I am anything but what seculars love to continually point out about Christians… a hypocrite.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:06 am
Again sorry for hogging.
Why cant we do both. Withdraw from Babylon whilst campaigning for her destruction. It’s just lets not be surprised when the campaigning falls on ever deafened ears.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Colin,
I appreciate your point of view very much. I too have very worldly siblings, and no amount of preaching (by me anyway) has made a visible impact on their lives. But, I suspect that if they were under my roof, eating at my table day in and day out, that just might change. I’m beginning to suspect that the faith consistently lived, is more ‘caught’ then ‘taught’. Teaching is essential of course, but first there must be an ear to hear. We earn the right to be heard by loving them despite the tattoos and piercings.
It sounds like Abraham just might supply you with a biblical model of good government on earth. He wasn’t perfect by any means; but his household was able to muster 318 trained men to rescue Lot from the ‘kings’ of the region. Apparently kings were small potatoes in Abraham’s day. It’s significant too that father Abraham, Paul says, is the father of both the circumcized and uncircumsized faithful. I take this to mean that his example is pertinent to every tribe, everywhere, in every time period. Like you though, my thoughts are fallible.
April 19th, 2008 at 11:44 am
I hope that I’m not beating a dead horse, but what about the rapture,and the tribulation? What is the postmil view there? That seems to be a hang up to accepting the postmil view as legitimate in my church. I think that in word at least most in my community would agree about the rulership of Jesus, yet they are definately not open to the idea that our debt based economy is evil, or that usury is wrong. Or that stewardship actually applies to the land, most apply it only to finances, and that in a rather twisted way… but it was me until only a fairly short time ago. I feel like the door has been opened to me, but there’s so much that I don’t understand, I hardly even can tell what is really an important issue and what is not essential. How about community? I can see what a valuable thing it would be to be in a community of more like minded people, but hereagain, not very long ago I didn’t have so little in common with those that I go to church with. If some of them are just further behind on the same road, I don’t want to just write them off. Isn’t there a terribly close resemblance between immaturity and apastacy? I feel like I’m getting bits of the picture but am missing something big that ties it all together. Thanks for the replies to my questions. Many of you in the christian agrarian community have been a tremedous encouragement to my family, all I can really say is that God is so very good as I look back at the long and winding path that has led us to where we are today. He has blessed us so much, even with the shallow grasp that I have of how His truth is to be lived out.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Angela,
The kingdom parables of Jesus are key to understanding postmil thinking. The parable of the tares & wheat is especially illuminating. Satan sows tares (which look a lot like wheat) in the field of the world, and God sows wheat. They grow to maturity together until the end of the age. At the end of the age (judgement day) the angels gather up the tares and burn them, and the wheat is gathered into the barn (heaven). Pretty straight forward. If the ‘7-year tribulation’ and ‘rapture’ theology is true, why did Jesus never mention it? Indeed, the word translated ‘rapture’ is only used once in the whole New Testament, to describe believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air AT THE END OF THE AGE. No pre-trib rapture followed by a judgement day seven years later, as far as I can see. In fact, no seven year tribulation as far as I can see. These are modern doctrines which were not taught in the christian church until 1850 or so, by J. N. Darby originally, an ex-catholic priest. Again, if these doctrines are truly biblical, why were they unknown to the church for 1,850 years?
Mathew 24 and parallel passages in Luke and Mark are often cited as ‘tribulation’ passages, but it is obvious from the context that they are talking about the end of Israel as the covenant people of God, and the coming destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 A.D. Jesus said ‘this generation’ meaning the people living at that time, would see the fulfillment of his prophecies, not some future generation.
The kingdom of God came with visible power at Pentecost, and has been growing ever since. Daniel said the kingdom is like an un-hewn stone that grows into a mountain which gradually crushes all the kingdoms of the world to powder. That’s postmillenialism in a nut-shell. It basically means we’re not getting raptured until Jesus returns to receive a kingdom that is for the most part, ready to receive Him, though still not perfect. It doesn’t mean moral progress will always be apparent or without pain and struggle, but over many centuries it will be visible. And if you think about history with the benefit of long-term hind-sight, in virtually every area we are better off today then we were 2,000 years ago, though there is still much to be done. At the time of the apostles, approximately 1 out of 400 or so people then alive claimed to be christians. Today, I believe that ratio is something like 1 in 10, though I’ve heard more optimistic estimates as well. The exact number is known only to God of course. But regardless, the kingdom has clearly enjoyed phenomenal growth in the first 2,000 years of it’s history. And the best is yet to be, though we clearly have many bumps in the road to overcome along the way. But make no mistake; believers are not called ‘overcomers’ for nothing.
I hope this helps.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
Why is a good part of this discussion suggesting some form of physical separation? When 2 Corinthians 14-18 is being suggested as the foundation for such a cause, what about the following verse in 7:1 which states “…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God”?
How do we perfect holiness in the fear of God except when we regard secession/separation strictly from a spiritual standpoint (which will cleanse the flesh too)? I am not surprising anyone by saying that cleansing comes from within. Can we not, by the power of the Holy Spirit accomplish such things without physical removal? What do I say to my brothers in Christ working in the bowels of society (take your pick … Harlem, Manhattan, Wall Street, Newark, China, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, India, Venezuela, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Broome County)? Do I say to them leave your plow and pick up another one over there where the air is fresh and we all think the same, plus, it’s Biblical!? I know that my brothers working in those dark and blacktop-paved fields are agrarians too, but just not necessarily in a physical sense. In this forum it almost sounds like a Biblical mandate for those who ‘truly understand’ God’s word that they need to secede. I am not saying that living in a beautiful place working an agrarian lifestyle is wrong (it is very appealing to me); I am just saying I do not think using God’s word to justify a move like that is correct.
I am thankful that Christ never seceded from a filthy, dark, disgusting, horrible and godless place before His Father called Him home.
One last note; when Scott said “We rejected a vision of victory for the Church and adopted a vision of defeat”, might it be that we adopt a vision of defeat when we entertain the idea of secession?
I hope this helps too.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:30 am
Kevin,
Secession does not mean we must cease to be salt and light to the world. Not everyone is called to be a farmer, this goes without saying. Rather, cultural secession is a recognition that we must reform all of our methods according to the light of Scripture, not just our motives. I’m sure you would agree that there are lots of ungodly ways to attempt evangelism. One of these is an undue reliance on emotional appeals and modern styles of music in order to manipulate people into coming forward. In the same way, there are godly and ungodly ways to do everything else as well.
Biblical agrarianism is about reforming agriculture, church, family, society, economy, government in accordance with God’s revealed will. It is about judging ourselves and reforming ourselves, lest judgement from the Lord begin with the household of God. This will in turn establish a corporate witness, many ‘cities upon a hill’, a powerful, salty, joint witness to a world trying to ’succeed’ apart from God. The scriptures say ‘they will know we are christians by our love’ for one another. In other words, the communities we endeavor to build will offer a sweet aroma, attractive to all who don’t yet know Him. There are two essential ingredients to every witnessing effort: There is our lip service, our testimony, our presentation of the gospel. AND there is our life-style: which is our credibility (or lack thereof) before a watching, hyper-critical world.
Ultimately the question is this: When the world looks at us, do they see anything different or distinctive about the christian faith? Or, is our visible testimony all gnostic, ’spiritual’, window dressing, with nothing substantially different between their ways and ours? Through cultural secession we can make a difference by being different. We will then be increasingly pressed to provide an answer for the hope that lies within us.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:42 pm
As Christians, we ARE called to “come out from among them and be separate.” As others have said here, agrarianism is more than farming, just as Christianity is more than believing correct doctrine. Thus, simply the act of moving to a farm does not guarantee a fix of the root problem, which is that the vast a majority of Christians are immersed in and dependent upon the pagan culture around them for their very survival. They are at war among themselves but at peace with the world. What is necessary to accomplish this is that we secede from that evil culture into a culture governed and defined by God and supported by His church. This does not mean that we are to try and find someplace to live where we are out of reach or isolated form the pagans, which is made clear by Christ in John 17:15 as well as in other Scriptures. However, there are limitations to where this can actually be accomplished, and huge cities like Kansas City and the urban, industrial culture they impose are not one of them. This can be easily seen by a cursory glance through church history, for wherever Christianity is found immersed in an urban culture, whether that be Rome, England or America, it is found to be in rampant apostasy. Conversely, whenever it separates itself from that culture by establishing its own in decentralized, local community, like the Waldensees, Anabaptists and Puritans, it thrives and grows exponentially stronger. This is simply and issue of being planted in the correct seedbed; like Christ taught in the parable of the Sower, Luke 8. Notice that throughout the parable, the seed remains the same; it is the ground that changes.
Also, there is no contradiction between 2 Cor. 6:14-18 and the following, (chapters 7,8,9 etc.). What is happening is that Paul is using the promises given in those verses, (come out from among them and be separate … and I will receive you, and be a Father to you and ye shall be my sons and daughters), as an encouragement, (Having therefore these promises), to reform our lives and conform them more and more to God’s call to holiness; the same issue dealt with by James when he say “faith without works is dead.” In fact, the context of this entire passage of Scripture, although it does have “spiritual” implications, is primarily addressing a very “temporal” issue or situation: their wallet. Paul is delivering a rebuke to the Corinthians for their failure to communicate an offering for the “ministering to the saints” (Chapters 8 & 9), as they had promised a year before, (8:10). Moreover, this is far from an isolated text, for we find the Scriptures addressing this very issue from Genesis to Revelation, (I shall soon be dealing with this in greater detail in the comments to my post on our visit to Rayville). We even see the Scripture plainly teaching that the spiritual truth of God separating unto Himself an holy nation and a peculiar people finds its effect and application in very real, down-to-earth, everyday situations and that it governs with authority those areas, here “in this present world,” (see Titus 2:7-15 and 1 Peter 2). On top of all this, even the name by which we are called in the Scriptures emphasizes the fact that God desires to separate us unto Himself. As the body of Christ, (and we would be a poor picture of His body if we didn’t live in close communion with each other), we are called the Ekklesia of God, which in its basic definition means “those called out.”
In addition, as for the issue of having rejected a vision of victory and adopting a vision of defeat, what is being referred to is the practical difference between the dispensational pre-trib position and that of the post-mil. In the pre-trib, the world is on an inevitable downward spiral into apostasy until the Lord comes back and raptures the tattered fragments of His church. Whereas in post-mil theology God is continually building and increasing His kingdom on earth, (established at the time of Christ), ultimately bringing about the renewal and restoration of His original created paradise over which His church shall rule, under Him, in their intended dominion. Just thought I would give my two cents.
Hope this has added something,
Tyler
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Hi,
I just realized I forgot to double space between my paragraphs. They are there even though it doesn’t look like it.
Sorry,
Tyler
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 am
Kevin, thank you for joining in and sharing your view. Randall and Tyler, thank you for taking the time to present such succinct apologias. I thought I would add a few points to the discussion. As I pointed out earlier, the word secede means to break fellowship or communion with. Paul’s command in 2 Corinthians 6 is for the Lord’s people to break the ungodly fellowship or communion they have with the wicked through their biblically unlawful relationships with them. Every time Israel got into trouble in uniting with the unbelieving nations around them they had to secede from them and return to faithful covenant keeping (communion – fellowship) with the Lord (Neh. 9). Biblical secession, therefore, does not mean to flee somewhere isolated and have no contact with the unbeliever; which is commonly believed, since it is actually quite the opposite. It means to break through repentance the wicked relationship with the unbeliever so as to relate to them according to the godly relationship of loving the Lord in all fidelity and faithfulness in obeying His commands. To secede and turn back to faithful covenant keeping is to REENGAGE the lost world as its salt and the earth its light, the pillar and ground of truth. “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith (1John 5:3-4).”
For many generations now in America mainstream Christians have been retreating from their calling to make disciples of the nations in preaching and living out the Gospel by their works . . . “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven (Mat. 5:16). Instead, they have unequally yoked themselves to the unbeliever by embracing thier customs, economics, and other elements of their growing pagan culture, thus making themselves fit for road gravel, all the while seeking to “evangelize” them. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men (Mat. 5:13).
We are called to be IN the world as the vicegerents of King Jesus (Mat. 28:19), going to every corner of the earth and to all nations with the Gospel and making disciples of them while teaching them to obey the commandments of Christ. We are not, however, to make friends with the world during the process so as to make the Gospel more palatable and relevant to them. “Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up (James 4:4-10).”
We are to engage the unbeliever at every level of society, but we are not to yoke with them for mutual peace and prosperity (Deu. 23:6, 2 Chr. 19:2, Ezra 9:12) during the process. In fact, as we live out the Gospel in obeying the commands of Christ, so we demonstrate to the world the love of God in a tangible manner that they can see, as the Lord blesses His people tangibly through the obedience He works in them.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Howdy to all.
Just got back yesterday from my trip to Rayville. Had a wonderful visit and will post the details of the adventure soon. I’m trying to get caught up with farm work and get my tiller running (carb problems).
Glad to see the discussion continued in my absence. Thanks to Missouri Rev, Tyler and Randall for stepping in. Couldn’t have said it better myself, you all saved me some typing
There are a few of these points that I would like to expand on, but I think they deserve posts of their own when I have time. Last day before the rains, so I’m off to get a few things done.
April 25th, 2008 at 11:00 am
I am glad you made it back to your family and “hill” safely. We, too, were greatly blessed by your visit and look forward to your future musings.
April 25th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Tyler states:
“However, there are limitations to where this can actually be accomplished, and huge cities like Kansas City and the urban, industrial culture they impose are not one of them. This can be easily seen by a cursory glance through church history, for wherever Christianity is found immersed in an urban culture, whether that be Rome, England or America, it is found to be in rampant apostasy.”
I can only assume that everyone agrees with this ‘apologia’ since it has not been corrected. However, is it not interesting (now that you mention Rome), that Paul commends those in Rome for how their faith is heard of throughout the world?
…First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8
And how about the churches in cities like Philadelphia and Smyrna referenced in Revelation? Were they not commended for their faith as well?
Tyler has stated that this cannot be accomplished in certain physical locations, yet God’s word shows clearly that it can and has.
Tyler, I appreciate your comments because your stand in this issue has been the clearest. I hope you do not feel I am singling you out; I am seeking the truth and addressing specific examples you have been able to provide. Thank you…
April 25th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Hi Kevin
I’m not Tyler but I thought I’d take a stab at your Rome example. Rome was empire not a city, if I’m not mistaken.
As far as cities go, there is nothing wrong with a biblical city. Cities such as Kansas City or LA for example are pagan cities. Why? Because they are built on unbiblical economic foundations. If take usury and fiat money away from them they would not even be there. When we see the word city in the bible and used in a positive way we should not think of the modern pagan city. When we obey God’s holy law these places will not sprout up. They thrive off of sin and disobedience.
April 25th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Hi Scott,
Welcome back.
Empire or city, I am sure you would classify Rome as not biblical, and Paul commended their world famous faith in an unbiblical place. The places I used in my example were all cities of sin and disobedience and God’s people were commended in places of sin and disobedience. Tyler suggested it could not be done, God has proven it can.
Come on. If this is where this apologia is going then I have said enough.
April 25th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Great discussion, gentlemen. Is anyone here arguing that one must live in the country and become a farmer to be a biblical agrarian? If so, I would have to argue that you are off your rocker.
However, Kevin, Solomon had 700 wives and concubines and God said he was the wisest man ever. Should we, then, do the same? David was a murdering adulturer and yet God said he was a man after His own heart. Should we do the same? “Rightous” Lot… moved to the evil city, became one of their elders, finally was convinced to leave, got drunk and had sex with his two daughters… rightous? Is this what it takes to be rightous? Deborah was the leader of Israel. Should we then have women leaders in the church? Well, maybe if one goes to an apostate church.
Hopefully my points are clear. Just because we read a historical fact in the Scriptures does not mean that we are to follow that same path. You also wrote above: “I am not saying that living in a beautiful place working an agrarian lifestyle is wrong (it is very appealing to me); I am just saying I do not think using God’s word to justify a move like that is correct.”
Certainly as christians we must use God’s Word to justify anything and everything we do. What we must be careful not to do, however, is to mold scripture to our pre-conceived ideas of how or what the Bible is really saying. In other words (and this might sound a little liberal) we cannot, necessarily take the words on the pages literally. We must interpret them with other scriptures and in light of when they were written and to whom they were written. Keep in mind that I am not accusing you or anyone else on this thread of doing this. I am simply saying that we must take the Word from front to back for what it was meant to say, not what we read into it with our 21st century mindset.
Anyway, Babylon has moved to the country, too. Some of the most vain, wordly, wanton, covetous people live in the country. And some very godly people live in the city. Removing yourself from Babylon does not necessarily mean you must live in the counry. It must be admitted, though, that in order to follow the moral law of God, while it can be accomplished in the city, sure would be more practical in the country. Only one example would be that the more of your own food that you can raise, the less dependent you will be on the God cursed, usurious, debt based, fiat monetary system we are all under. Yes, the dollar is still our form of trade, but if you can live debt free, grow much of your own food, home educate your (Lord willing) many children, hunt or raise your own meat, produce your own heat, etc. etc., that is simply that much more in “dollars” that you will not have to be enslaved to.
I am not foolish enough to think that we’ll see a return to real money in my lifetime (though God can certainly do it if He chooses), but if our generation does not do something to move in the right direction, then we will continue down the path of destruction.
Again I ask, though… is anyone trying to suggest that one must live in the country to be biblically agrarian? Would anyone suggest that it is impossible (or even unwise - threw this in just for kicks) to be a biblical agrarian in the city?
I started thinking about something else as I was typing this. Did you know that many Orthodox Jews, Catholics, Hindus and Muslims all live in close proximity to one another in their own “communities” in the city? Why can’t or won’t Reformed Christians do the same? Those groups have all come to power in local government and are taking dominion over their world. Why don’t we? Well, one problem is the fact that modern evangelicism has bought hook, line, and sinker into the lie that what is spiritual is all that matters because this world belongs to Satan and we’re all gonna get raptured anyway. I don’t know who those people worship, but I worship King Jesus, the ruler of this world, Heaven and everything else INCLUDING Satan! We reject God’s blessings (children) through birth control and yet stand in line to apply for His curses (debt). I wonder how many churches in Babylon are in debt up to their eyeballs and yet when a person with 6 7 8 or 14 children walk in the doors, people gawk at them like they are some kind of freak show.
Sorry for the quick rant at the end. I’m off my soapbox now.
Once again, great discussion.
Oh, and Angela, you’ve asked some fantastic questions! I brings joy to me to see believers as the Bereans were. The men have answered wonderfully. Someone help me out on my facts here… the “Rapture” as we know it today (Saints secretly disappearing before the tribulation) was actually first revealled as a dream that a 14 year old girl in Scotland had when she was sick with a fever. If I am not mistaken, her name was Margerite and the year was 1849. J. Darby, who was believed to be a pretty staunch heratic, even when he was alive, visited her with a few other well known evangelicals and took her “vision” as something from God. It was not until the C E Scofield study bible that it really began to spread like wildfire in 1913. I thank God, that through His mercy and grace and longsuffering, He has not destroyed the church for embracing this doctrine (pre-millinial dispensationalism) as I believe (just my opinion) that it is the most abominable herasy the Church has embraced besides Arminianism (free will salvation).
One good site to learn about the different “end times” views is http://www.monorgism.com.
In Christ,
Matt Davis
April 25th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Scott,
I hope you had a great time of fellowship with the Saints in Rayville. Next time, you need to buy a ticket down to New Orleans and come visit us (if we’re still here). I’ll take you to see the French Market, Jackson Square with all the tarot card readers and soothsayers, Jax Brewery (unfortunately you will find no beer there, but if you want $80 jeans, there’s plenty) and finally on to Bourbon Street. There’s plenty of mules pulling wagons down here too… and even more Jackasses, but you’ll have to go to city hall to see them! :o)
Seriously, I hope you were greatly blessed. Give me a holler when you can.
Matt
April 25th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Kevin,
You are quite correct to point out the godly example of urban christians in times past. But it might be illuminating to consider why their impact was so profound while ours in modern times has not been.
They absolutely refused to worship Caesar. They would not worship him ‘along with’ Jesus, instead of Jesus or even as a minor deity below Jesus. They worshipped The Lord and no other.
We, on the other hand, worship Caesar in many ways we don’t even recognize. We allow our children to be indoctrinated in the false religions of multiculturalism, pluralism and agnosticism, through public schools and public entertainment. We pay and accept usury as though God’s Word is silent on the matter. We casually accept and give false weights and measures in the form of fiat currency. We allow Caesar to care for our elderly and our very young, because we would rather golf. We send our wives off to work and then wonder why we end up in divorce court just as much as the worldlings do. We’ll do anything for endless ‘progress’ and more money, even destroy our health, our families, our churches and the very earth we stand on. We may rail publicly (for now) against homosexuals and pedophiles and polygamists, but porn and fornication and adultery run rampant in the church. We will usually borrow money without a second thought just to maintain our gluttonous standard of living. We have helped institutionalize envy and covetousness, encouraging our people to steal from each other by majority vote. We have accepted birth control and abortion on demand as human ‘rights’. We think we are rich, the indispensable nation, but we are poor, blind and naked and don’t even know it. We are Laodicea all over again.
The church is fully represented and engaged in all the sins of our culture and then some. That was not true of the roman christians of Paul’s day. They were trying to SEPARATE themselves and not take part in the corporate sins of Rome. I’m afraid most christians today aren’t even making the attempt. And the ones who are trying, are accused by the rest of retreating.
Listen very carefully. I’m not retreating. I’m simply trying to obey so that I can eventually conquer in the name of my Lord.
April 26th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Kevin, I think we are talking past each other on this.
Back to Tyler’s example of Rome, England and the US. No one is saying that it is a sin to not be a country dweller. His example was of places where the church comprimised with the world (pagan-industrial-complex) and went apostate. These are historical FACTS. Where is the Roman Empire today? What about the Church of Rome…..might we call it apostate? England is gone, they are part of the EU and the Church of England has gone apostate. They have been invaded by muslims and given over to the enemy. The USA is about to bite the dust and our churches for the most part preach half a Gospel at best. Those of us who are trying to build a Christian culture pay attention to these things. We are willing to learn from the mistakes of our brothers in the past. The fact is, modern cities will cease to exist after the sinking of our fiat economy. How do I know it will sink? Because God is just and his judgment will come. The Kingdom will be advanced and He will be Glorified. God is not mocked. History records the tales of Nations that refused to bow the knee to the King of Kings and refused to follow his laws. There will be cities in the future but they will be sustainable centers of justice and commerce and not the monuments to “the stupidity and arrogance of mankind” that we see today. Tens of thousands of people that for the most part don’t produce anything. A “service economy” that can’t feed or cloth itself. A mass of people that rely on the wicked money system that is cursed of God. I am conserned for these people, some of them brothers and sisters in the Lord. What will they do?
April 26th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Scott,
Herrick Kimball’s latest post, Hope For A Troubled America, deals with the same subject quite well. It can be viewed at http://thedeliberateagrarian.blogspot.com. He quotes from an essay by Michael Bunker, “Where Christianity has existed in an agrarian culture, it has thrived and produced ample fruit. Where it has existed nominally in a non-agrarian culture it has proved to produce no fruit at all except apostasy. Examples abound. Christianity was born “outside the camp” in the rural areas of Israel and it found its greatest movement and growth once it scattered out of urban Jerusalem after the stoning of Stephen. It has been hunted down and persecuted by the great harlot city of Rome, while it thrived in the valleys and mountains of the Alps. It found Reformation in Germany, Switzerland, England, and Scotland only to suffocate again when it became the state religion in the great cities of those lands. It fled Europe for the wilds of Puritan America and thrived in the fertile soils of the New World, only to be choked out once again by the stony ground of northern industrialism and the growing urban state. Christianity is not just theology, and the sooner we realize and accept that, the faster we will grow into maturity.” I might add that where the Gospel was preached in the cities in the first century, as testified by the Book of Acts, those preaching stirred up real controversy and were accused of turning “the world upside down” and fomenting sedition to state worship because they preached “another King, Jesus.” Those that refused to bow the knee to Caesar were put to death until the Lord from on High destroyed Rome. Today, we are not put to death, just lobotomized through generatioanl idolatry.
April 26th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Hi Pastor McConnell
Thanks for posting that. I thought Herrick’s post was good as well, and I was going to link to it these comments but hadn’t got a round to it yet. The way my mind has been the last couple of days, I might not have ever got to it
April 27th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Hello everybody,
I have been very busy around the farm as of late and had failed to notice that this thread had continued to grow. However, it appears that others are keeping up better than I and have, I believe, done a good job answering the questions brought up in my previous comment; especially Matt, Scott and Randall on the 25th and 26th. I also like the quote from Michael Bunker, who I believe does a great job dealing with this very issue in his sermons and writings.
Thanks for your comments Kevin! I do not feel singled out in the least. There should always be room for question and even disagreement or else non of us would ever experience the benefit of having our position or beliefs put to the test. We are all Christians here seeking the truth and we need the help and input of our fellow Christians. It is hard for anyone to be sure or confident in their position if they have never had to consider the pertinent questions of those who might disagree. I feel this is especially true in my case, as at 21 years old I still have much to learn and covet the input of my more mature brothers in Christ.
I’m afraid that I didn’t make myself quite as clear as was needed, (a common difficulty for me when trying to condense my thoughts). I am not saying that Christianity can’t exist in the city, even pagan ones. And I am most definitely not saying that they would or will not exist in a world run by the government of Christ, although I do believe they would be structured very differently. I am mainly talking about the culture that is promoted and supported within these places, not the places themselves, which is why simply moving to the country is not a fix for anything. Christianity requires that it be a culture unto itself not a part of the culture at large. We are not to present Christianity a just one choice among the religions of this world; it is the only choice, and to voice that opinion while living in the midst of today’s ecumenical cities will be guaranteed to bring you persecution. However, I do contend that the pagan, industrialized, corporate, mammon worshiping cities of today could not biblically be considered the proper seedbed for the Christian faith and for Christians to be correctly serving God in their midst would be guaranteed to produce the results and persecution experienced by the early church in Rome and elsewhere.
The issue I had intended to target was that of separating from the world’s culture, which I would also contend is not being done by those who confine their faith to a private, harmless and irrelevant spiritual theory while still partaking in all the evil and apostasy of the modern, urban church. If you want to attempt to live within the urban society of today, at least require yourself to do so within the mandates of Scripture while separating yourself from the corrupt culture it promotes and not simply go with the flow of corporate humanism or whatever other religion happens to be most prevalent in you area. If one can keep himself serving God in purity while in the city, without relying almost entirely upon the support the pagan cultural system, and partaking in the worship of the pagan gods, then you have my blessing. However, if you are really doing so you will be condemning the culture about you and they will know it. It will not be easy and you most assuredly will not be living comfortably without persecution. I speak form personal experience!
Also it would be helpful to keep our examples within a broader historical context and not just confine ourselves to a certain time or place. When we see the church thriving within a city or cities it is always accompanied with a radical noncompliance (and I am not speaking in militant terms) with accepted pagan norms as has already been pointed out. This always brings about stiff opposition from the pagans around them, which is why living godly lives within a pagan urban culture is so difficult and yes, I would say unwise. As we follow the history of the church within these cities, they all seem to end up with the same problem of irrelevance and apostasy and ultimately cease to exist, either through separation or through assimilation. In other words, they have either been driven out “to the ends of the earth” through persecution, or they have been enticed to join with the world by being accepted by and accepting the culture of the pagans. Also, they have seen a relatively short period of constancy in comparison with those who have maintained a distinct cultural separation. Take the “Anabaptists” once again, who, by the way, existed well before the reformation.
One thing we should all keep in mind while giving our examples is that there are normative and non-normative patterns in both Scripture and history and it is important that we learn to differentiate between the two. For us to say we are to follow a non-normative pattern while ignoring the normative one should require a very good reason indeed. Just a thought!
I realize that all of this is a very poor and incomplete answer and I do not wish for it to be construed as comprehensive apologia, although that would be a worthy and much needed clarification on this topic. Perhaps some of us should consider dealing with this issue in greater detail and comprehensive scope on our own blogs. This is something I hope to do on ours, as this discussion has caused me to come to the conclusion that just replying to the comments on my post “Our Trip to Missouri #2″ would probably not be in anybody’s best interest.
In the service of mutual edification,
Tyler
April 28th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Living in the country has one big and obvious advantage over languishing in the city. Land!!
For there to be an establishment of multi generational faithfullness a Father needs land for his sons to inherit. For the poor man to leave a patrimony he must live out on the fringe in sometimes poor and difficult circumstances. However his patrimony will be freedom for his children. We just came back from visiting an Amish-mennonite community here in Ireland and got a glimpse of Christian community living. And that witness was something well worth viewing.
Fathers waking with their sons , worshipping with them and then spending the day working with them, is the way to truly walk with them. Spending time in the garden with the Father is what God had in mind with his relationship with Adam.
How can a man live free from the corrupt spirit of compromise that continues to haunt the streets of cities. Sure compromise lives in the countryside, but here you can ignore it, unless you choose to visit it. In the city you must live with it, and pity the mans children that no doubt go on to inherit it.
As far as the tentacles of Babylon , dont use them. rendering to Caesar is operative only to those who have their hands in his pockets.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:18 am
WOW, you guys sure know how to fulfill a request!
Y’all have done a tremendous job!
Looking forward to more!
April 29th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I agree with Christine! Thank You for this!!! :0) I certainly learned alot!
I too, look forward to more!
May 1st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
More questions for you all! I have appreciated that so many of the people that I would like to ask have responded here. At the end of Matthew 24, what is meant by “two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left”? Is that not a reference to a rapture? Or in verse 29, talking about the sun being darkened…is that something that has already happened or what is being talked about here?
Randallgerard talks about usury and borrowing money…are we prohibited from borrowing money? There’s no denying that its not wise, but is it really a sin? Or how about using fiat currency, is there any way around it? I can’t pay my taxes with apples!
May 1st, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Angela,
Thanks for more good questions. Let me start by saying that I’m no expert, but I have wrestled many years with similar questions, and I’m still wrestling. I have a feeling I might be wrestling for quite some time, even.
Having said that, I humbly offer the following thoughts. My thoughts and a $1.50 might buy you a bottomless cup o’ coffee in most restaurants, and very little else, however. Please keep that in mind. Regarding Matt. 24, keep in mind that Jesus is answering three separate questions posed to Him by the disciples. They are: When will these things be? (that is, when will the temple be destroyed?, Vs. 2), What will be the sign of your coming? and, What sign will herald the close of the ‘age’? In my opinion, Jesus answers these questions thoroughly and in order, but historically believers have been divided over which verses answer which questions.
The key to dividing the passage correctly is vs. 34: ‘Truly I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until ALL these things take place.’ So then, I take everything preceding vs. 34 as fulfilled by 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus destroyed the temple for the last time. I think we have to take our Lord at His Word: He said ‘this generation’, not some future generation, and He said ‘all’ not some. And to emphasize the point, He says in vs. 35: ‘Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.’ He says this just in case we’re tempted to disbelieve His answers to the first two questions: When will the temple be destroyed? and: When will be the end of the age? (meaning the end of the temple, the sacrifices, and Israel as the covenant people of God)
Now I know I have skimmed over many difficult sayings of Jesus before we get to vs. 34. And, for the record, I’m not sure what vs. 29-31 refer to, exactly. But I do take these words as figurative apocalyptic language which also occurs in the O.T. and indicates obvious and cataclysmic judgement. In my opinion they do not necessarily mean that the sun and moon were literally darkened, just that the judgement God is bringing upon Israel will be that obvious. For now though, realize that vs. 34 marks the end of Jesus’s answer to questions concerning the temple and the end of the age; but NOT the end of all history and final judgement. Jesus takes up the answer to that question in vs. 36: ‘But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.’ Now Jesus is talking about judgement day, the end of the world. The passage you reference, vs. 40, is part of His answer to that question and may refer to a rapture, a catching away of believers; or, it could refer to the angels gathering ‘tares’ out of the kingdom, leaving the righteous to shine forth as the sun in the now fully mature Kingdom. But Jesus’s main point here is for us to watch and be ready, because He will return unexpectedly, just like in the days of Noah. So then, the signs leading up to the destruction of Israel and the end of the temple will be obvious to all men; but there will be no warning of final judgement. At that time, Jesus says, He will expect to find His servants working diligently in the callings He has given them. This seems to indicate, to me anyway, that maybe unbelievers will be ‘raptured’ unto judgement, while believers are left behind to meet the Lord unexpectedly, at an hour they do not expect, even as they are engaged in bearing fruit for God. But, I could be wrong.
Along other lines… borrowing money may be sinful, if you are trying to scratch a covetous itch by doing so. However, a poor man trying to keep his head above water is not necessarily sinning by borrowing, but he is nonetheless enslaved in proportion to his debt. The N.T. indicates that if we’re called to serve God as slaves of other men, we’re not to worry about it; but rather strive to get free, so that we can then give ourselves completely to God. To exact usury on a non-productive loan or charitable loan, on the other hand, is a sin. Ps. 15:5, for example. A non-productive loan is not a loan for business or investment purposes, but purely for consumption.
As for fiat currency, you’re right, there’s not much we can do about it, and I don’t advocate paying taxes in real goods when the government is willing to take pictures of dead presidents instead. By all means, give them their own back, and gladly. Nevertheless, the creation of fiat money, which is a false weight and measure that the Bible condemns, is a sin that we are all responsible for in some degree. This is our country, our government, our system.. and the church has acquiesced and complied with this national wickedness on a staggering scale. Rampant usury and fiat money, which we all thought would bring endless progress, even though it violates God’s word, will ultimately be an instrument of judgement on all of us as well. God is not mocked.
But, individually I’m not sure there’s much we can do about it. The runaway locomotive that is our system appears to be unstoppable.. until in the Lord’s timing, it derails.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Randall said,
“This seems to indicate, to me anyway, that maybe unbelievers will be ‘raptured’ unto judgement, while believers are left behind to meet the Lord unexpectedly, at an hour they do not expect, even as they are engaged in bearing fruit for God. But, I could be wrong.”
I’ve always thought the same here. The Noah reference speaks to this. In Noah’s day, in the passage referenced, who was taken and who was “left behind”?
As to the sun, moon and stars. In Old Testament symbolism sun, moon and stars are used to speak of earthly authorities and governors. When God comes against them in judgment the same Falling/darkening terminology is used. Isa 13;9-10 in reference to the fall of babylon in 539bc uses this language. The basis for this symbolism is found in Gen 1:14-16 when the sun, moon and stars are are spoken of as “signs” which “govern” the world.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Angela,
The meek inherit the earth. Always. Period. As it was in the days of Noah, so it was in the day of the coming of the Lord of glory seated upon His throne after the resurrection. The ones taken away are the wicked. The ones left to steward the earth to His glory are the meek, who walk in submission to God and His law. The reference in Matthew 24 is definitely not to a rapture, which comes from defeatist theology that says that the righteous can only just hang on until Jesus comes and rescues us from this wicked world, which we can’t change, because the devil is the ruler of the world, and after all, why polish brass on a sinking ship?
The primary reference for “the sun, moon and stars” is Israel, as in Genesis 37:9 we find out that Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons, one of which, Joseph, had dreams wherein his mother, father and brothers all bowed down to him. This dream came to be fulfilled, yet the typology remains and is woven into the heart of the promises of God to Israel. Israel was and is, as the true Israel of God according to the new creation, to be the light of the world. However, the nation state of Israel had fallen into deep apostasy and rebellion against her husband, who brought covenant lawsuit against her for her idolatry and harlotry (Revelations). In 70 AD the Lord returned in glory with His angels and brought an end to this ongoing sin as filled up to the maximum by the crucifixion of our Lord. As the center of God’s authority structure in the world, the sun, moon and stars fell to the earth. A new heavens and new earth were created, wherein dwells righteousness. That is, a new authority structure was created wherein the church is the temple of God and the salt and light of the world.
RandallGerard, I agree with most of what you’ve said. Thanks for addressing these controversial but crucial eschatological questions. As far as debt goes, we are all in debt, it cannot be escaped. What we owe the Lord far outweighs any ability we have to pay it off. I agree that the sin is not usually in the debtor, except as he might be covetous or without faith, but most often the one that loans is in sin. (BTW, the Fed creates our money by loaning it into existence, we end up sweating for it.) Debt plays a part in biblical economics, but it must always be charitable. This is why I cannot agree that it is OK to exact usury on productive non-charity (commercial) loans. For this, I know you need to rethink your position. There is no aspect of life outside the jurisdiction of His word, including business. We are to walk in charity towards all men.
The same goes for our fiat currency, which is simply a debt instrument, as it is based wholly on an obligation, not anything of tangible value. As Jesus pointed out, “whose image and subscription is upon this coin?” Our dollar is undeniable evidence of our bondage and slavery. It does not mean we should not or cannot use it, especially to pay taxes (Jesus did). However, national freedom is related to freedom from sin, and if we are free from sin inwardly, we will be free nationally. Right now, we are in captivity. Use the slave chits to pay your obligations, or else you’ll be dishonoring the authorities that God has placed over us for our rebellion.
This set of comments has been most interesting to follow. Thanks for all that have contributed, and God bless.
Jeff
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Has anyone read “The Last Days According to Jesus”, by R.C. Sproul on this topic? It really shed some light on Matthew 24 for me… after readin it a couple of times. Sometimes I’m slow.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
BTW, regarding my earlier post and where the theory of the “secret rapture” came from, I found the info I was looking for. Basically, the theological notion of a “secret rapture” was invented by a fifteen year old girl named Margaret MacDonald in 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland. She had a “vision” concerning the return of Christ. John Nelson Darby, who was a British minister and founder of a denomination called the “Plymouth Brethern” began to spread and popularize this vision. However, it was not until 1909, when C. I. Scofield pubished an annotated version of the “King James” translation of the Bible called the “Scofield Reference Bible” that this theory realy began to be interwoven into the church. Scofield’s annotations were based on the theology of J N Darby as well as the Greek studies of Wescott and Hort (who’s teachings were heretical). The “Scofield Reference Bible” popularized the teachings of Darby. Fundamentalist Christians in the U. S. adopted Scofield’s Bible as authoritative. Interestingly, the annotations are not very well seperated from the actual text of the bible.
Hope this helps. Also check out http://www.reformed.org.
Also, Angela… thank you for asking these questions and legitimately studying God’s Word to see if what is spoken here is true. It pleases me, as I know it does the others who are posting here, to meet Bereans!
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:03 am
This has been bothering me for quite some time, the subject of the rapture that is. And Matt, that puts a timeline on what’s bothering me. When I read any writings of Godly men before the dates you posted they talk nothing of a rapture and afterwards they do. And the most noted speakers on the subject are only a handful that write book after book about it and sell allot of books. I recently posted a John Wesley quote on Northern Farmer, it goes:
“Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen; such alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the kingdom of heaven on earth.”
This quote is not the same type of quote a person would get nowadays in the modern church. The setting up the kingdom part is never even considered nowadays. Good thread, much food for though and I thank Scott for starting it. Allot to chew on that has been bothering me for a long time. Many things are much more scriptural here than what’s considered the norm today.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Howdy Tom
Glad you found something to chew on
The secret rapture doctrine always rubbed my wrong as well. Its all pretty new stuff without a shred of biblical support.
Thanks Matt
The story behind and time line for the crazy “secret rupture” doctrine is important for people to know. Most average christians these days just assume that it always been part of the church and considered normal. Of course this is just not the case.
As a matter of fact the idea of a future Great Tribulation has never been the dominate view of the church until fairly recently either. The idea has been around a long time but never been the popular one. Even the old time premill crowd, before the “Darby Craze” known as dispensationalism became popular, still understood that the Church is the Israel of God now. They didn’t have a racialist view of Israel or get all concerned about a geo-political Israel either. Its amazing how far we’ve strayed in few hundred years.
May 3rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Tom,
I’m glad you’re here and reconsidering eschatology a little. I have seen that what the church believes about the future will determine our priorities here and now. In this area, like every other, believing a lie can only do great harm. The bad consequences of ‘rapture theology’ within the church are many:
1. The dominion mandate is currently ignored in the church. Modern christians typically vacillate between earth worshipping environmentalism and crass materialism. There is no good reason to steward the planet wisely, or even study the Bible to find out what that looks like, if we’re getting raptured before it all goes to hell anyway. We’re frequently told not to polish brass on a sinking ship.
2. The secular state of Israel is supported uncritically by U.S. christians, even as Israel kills and steals from palestinian christians! As far as U.S. evangelicals are concerned, Israel can do no wrong. But the Bible says, WE, meaning the church, are the true israel of God! This means that the modern state of Israel is just another nation that needs to repent and embrace Christ! (just like muslim nations, for example)
3. I’ve seen christians justify poor financial decisions by asserting that it doesn’t really matter since Jesus is coming to rapture them soon anyway.
4. I’ve seen christians justify political apathy, continuous moral retreat, a poor work ethic, and a defeatist mindset all by appealing to rapture theology.
5. In the church, we have accepted uncritically that the ONLY reward we can expect during our time on earth is defeat, marginalization and social impotence. Yet Jesus promised that His church would ultimately prevail over the very gates of hell. Understand one thing. Gates defend against attack. THIS MEANS HELL WILL EVENTUALLY BE MAKING A LAST DESPERATE STAND AGAINST A VICTORIOUS CHURCH!!
6. The church resides in two places at once. We are seated now in heavenly places with Christ. And we run a race here and now before a great cloud of witnesses, angels and saints who have passed to their final reward. What we do here matters, because Jesus died to redeem all of it. The church will ultimately experience and enjoy victory in two places. The meek will inherit the earth AND eventually sing ‘Holy, Holy Holy’ around the throne of God in heaven. Our reward will be a redeemed earth as well as the splendors of heaven!
7. Christians today appeal to rapture theology to shirk their God-given responsibility to press upon the WHOLE WORLD the crown rights of Jesus. Many don’t even bother to submit every area of their own lives to His lordship. We have become masters of ‘compartmentalizing’ our lives; yet there is no area of any believer’s life that is not ruled by God. Brothers, God WILL grow and sanctify His church, and He will use us as witnesses whether we like it or not! If you don’t believe me, re-read the book of Jonah! If you are REDEEMED you are also SENT, and you may as well make up your mind to be fully dedicated to seeing EVERY knee bow, and EVERY tongue confess, that JESUS IS LORD to the glory of God the Father!
May 8th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Hi, Scott,
Before this post marches off the bottom of the blog page, I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your original post and the subsequent comments. As you often so deftly accomplish, I felt as though all of us were sitting on your porch, drinking adult beverages, and visiting after church on a Sunday afternoon. I know farmers and ranchers don’t have much “free” time, but I certainly appreciate all of the thoughts you pen to those of us who are fortunate enough to read your blog.
I also enjoyed your post about the trip to Rayville. I’m glad you had a chance to visit the brothers and sisters and most famous mule team in Mizzurah!
On a totally different subject, just wondering if you’ve given any thought to having another Jr. Agrarian Essay contest?
Blessings to you, Leah, the boys, and the girls (cows).
May 9th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Hi Deb
Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! It kind of took on a life of its own
I must say that I liked your analogy of “sitting on your porch, drinking adult beverages, and visiting after church on a Sunday afternoon.” It would be great to get the whole gang here for such a session some time.
I have thought about doing another round of the essay contest. It kind of got put on the back burner for while because of a lot of stuff I had going on. Perhaps we can get another one started up for this year. We will have to see how much interest there is.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:25 am
Very interesting. A lot to think about here, I’m glad I came across this site!