Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! It kind of took on a life of its own I must say that I liked your analogy of “sitting on your porch, drinking adult beverages, and visiting after church on a Sunday afternoon.” It would be great to get the whole gang here for such a session some time.

I have thought about doing another round of the essay contest. It kind of got put on the back burner for while because of a lot of stuff I had going on. Perhaps we can get another one started up for this year. We will have to see how much interest there is.

Before this post marches off the bottom of the blog page, I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your original post and the subsequent comments. As you often so deftly accomplish, I felt as though all of us were sitting on your porch, drinking adult beverages, and visiting after church on a Sunday afternoon. I know farmers and ranchers don’t have much “free” time, but I certainly appreciate all of the thoughts you pen to those of us who are fortunate enough to read your blog.

I also enjoyed your post about the trip to Rayville. I’m glad you had a chance to visit the brothers and sisters and most famous mule team in Mizzurah!

On a totally different subject, just wondering if you’ve given any thought to having another Jr. Agrarian Essay contest?

Blessings to you, Leah, the boys, and the girls (cows).

I’m glad you’re here and reconsidering eschatology a little. I have seen that what the church believes about the future will determine our priorities here and now. In this area, like every other, believing a lie can only do great harm. The bad consequences of ‘rapture theology’ within the church are many:

1. The dominion mandate is currently ignored in the church. Modern christians typically vacillate between earth worshipping environmentalism and crass materialism. There is no good reason to steward the planet wisely, or even study the Bible to find out what that looks like, if we’re getting raptured before it all goes to hell anyway. We’re frequently told not to polish brass on a sinking ship.

2. The secular state of Israel is supported uncritically by U.S. christians, even as Israel kills and steals from palestinian christians! As far as U.S. evangelicals are concerned, Israel can do no wrong. But the Bible says, WE, meaning the church, are the true israel of God! This means that the modern state of Israel is just another nation that needs to repent and embrace Christ! (just like muslim nations, for example)

3. I’ve seen christians justify poor financial decisions by asserting that it doesn’t really matter since Jesus is coming to rapture them soon anyway.

4. I’ve seen christians justify political apathy, continuous moral retreat, a poor work ethic, and a defeatist mindset all by appealing to rapture theology.

5. In the church, we have accepted uncritically that the ONLY reward we can expect during our time on earth is defeat, marginalization and social impotence. Yet Jesus promised that His church would ultimately prevail over the very gates of hell. Understand one thing. Gates defend against attack. THIS MEANS HELL WILL EVENTUALLY BE MAKING A LAST DESPERATE STAND AGAINST A VICTORIOUS CHURCH!!

6. The church resides in two places at once. We are seated now in heavenly places with Christ. And we run a race here and now before a great cloud of witnesses, angels and saints who have passed to their final reward. What we do here matters, because Jesus died to redeem all of it. The church will ultimately experience and enjoy victory in two places. The meek will inherit the earth AND eventually sing ‘Holy, Holy Holy’ around the throne of God in heaven. Our reward will be a redeemed earth as well as the splendors of heaven!

7. Christians today appeal to rapture theology to shirk their God-given responsibility to press upon the WHOLE WORLD the crown rights of Jesus. Many don’t even bother to submit every area of their own lives to His lordship. We have become masters of ‘compartmentalizing’ our lives; yet there is no area of any believer’s life that is not ruled by God. Brothers, God WILL grow and sanctify His church, and He will use us as witnesses whether we like it or not! If you don’t believe me, re-read the book of Jonah! If you are REDEEMED you are also SENT, and you may as well make up your mind to be fully dedicated to seeing EVERY knee bow, and EVERY tongue confess, that JESUS IS LORD to the glory of God the Father!

Glad you found something to chew on The secret rapture doctrine always rubbed my wrong as well. Its all pretty new stuff without a shred of biblical support.

Thanks Matt

The story behind and time line for the crazy “secret rupture” doctrine is important for people to know. Most average christians these days just assume that it always been part of the church and considered normal. Of course this is just not the case.

As a matter of fact the idea of a future Great Tribulation has never been the dominate view of the church until fairly recently either. The idea has been around a long time but never been the popular one. Even the old time premill crowd, before the “Darby Craze” known as dispensationalism became popular, still understood that the Church is the Israel of God now. They didn’t have a racialist view of Israel or get all concerned about a geo-political Israel either. Its amazing how far we’ve strayed in few hundred years.

“Give me one hundred preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen; such alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the kingdom of heaven on earth.”

This quote is not the same type of quote a person would get nowadays in the modern church. The setting up the kingdom part is never even considered nowadays. Good thread, much food for though and I thank Scott for starting it. Allot to chew on that has been bothering me for a long time. Many things are much more scriptural here than what’s considered the norm today.

Hope this helps. Also check out http://www.reformed.org.

Also, Angela… thank you for asking these questions and legitimately studying God’s Word to see if what is spoken here is true. It pleases me, as I know it does the others who are posting here, to meet Bereans!

The meek inherit the earth. Always. Period. As it was in the days of Noah, so it was in the day of the coming of the Lord of glory seated upon His throne after the resurrection. The ones taken away are the wicked. The ones left to steward the earth to His glory are the meek, who walk in submission to God and His law. The reference in Matthew 24 is definitely not to a rapture, which comes from defeatist theology that says that the righteous can only just hang on until Jesus comes and rescues us from this wicked world, which we can’t change, because the devil is the ruler of the world, and after all, why polish brass on a sinking ship?

The primary reference for “the sun, moon and stars” is Israel, as in Genesis 37:9 we find out that Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons, one of which, Joseph, had dreams wherein his mother, father and brothers all bowed down to him. This dream came to be fulfilled, yet the typology remains and is woven into the heart of the promises of God to Israel. Israel was and is, as the true Israel of God according to the new creation, to be the light of the world. However, the nation state of Israel had fallen into deep apostasy and rebellion against her husband, who brought covenant lawsuit against her for her idolatry and harlotry (Revelations). In 70 AD the Lord returned in glory with His angels and brought an end to this ongoing sin as filled up to the maximum by the crucifixion of our Lord. As the center of God’s authority structure in the world, the sun, moon and stars fell to the earth. A new heavens and new earth were created, wherein dwells righteousness. That is, a new authority structure was created wherein the church is the temple of God and the salt and light of the world.

RandallGerard, I agree with most of what you’ve said. Thanks for addressing these controversial but crucial eschatological questions. As far as debt goes, we are all in debt, it cannot be escaped. What we owe the Lord far outweighs any ability we have to pay it off. I agree that the sin is not usually in the debtor, except as he might be covetous or without faith, but most often the one that loans is in sin. (BTW, the Fed creates our money by loaning it into existence, we end up sweating for it.) Debt plays a part in biblical economics, but it must always be charitable. This is why I cannot agree that it is OK to exact usury on productive non-charity (commercial) loans. For this, I know you need to rethink your position. There is no aspect of life outside the jurisdiction of His word, including business. We are to walk in charity towards all men.

The same goes for our fiat currency, which is simply a debt instrument, as it is based wholly on an obligation, not anything of tangible value. As Jesus pointed out, “whose image and subscription is upon this coin?” Our dollar is undeniable evidence of our bondage and slavery. It does not mean we should not or cannot use it, especially to pay taxes (Jesus did). However, national freedom is related to freedom from sin, and if we are free from sin inwardly, we will be free nationally. Right now, we are in captivity. Use the slave chits to pay your obligations, or else you’ll be dishonoring the authorities that God has placed over us for our rebellion.

This set of comments has been most interesting to follow. Thanks for all that have contributed, and God bless.

Jeff

I’ve always thought the same here. The Noah reference speaks to this. In Noah’s day, in the passage referenced, who was taken and who was “left behind”?

As to the sun, moon and stars. In Old Testament symbolism sun, moon and stars are used to speak of earthly authorities and governors. When God comes against them in judgment the same Falling/darkening terminology is used. Isa 13;9-10 in reference to the fall of babylon in 539bc uses this language. The basis for this symbolism is found in Gen 1:14-16 when the sun, moon and stars are are spoken of as “signs” which “govern” the world.